So we know that for the foreseeable future, the Horus Heresy aka 30k will be sticking with 7th edition 40k, albeit in a slightly modified manner. There are strong arguments on either side of the debate regarding whether this is a good move or a bad move.
I am firmly in the camp that says 8th edition would have improved 30k.
I am well aware that 30k and 40k operated differently under 7th edition, however I think there is a degree of blindness on some players that think that 30k is perfect under 7th edition, and doesn't have problems. The chasm of problems that 7th edition suffered in 40k were very much down to rules additions rather than the main game mechanics true. By which of course, I am talking about formations and the in balance between codices.
However, the foibles of 7th edition are the Universal Special Rules (USR) within the core mechanic. When a unit was designed in 7th edition, in order to represent what that unit can do in game, rather than writing a rule for that unit, a certain amount of jury rigging was performed with the currently available USR to fit that role.
This has led to certain mechanics working better than others. This in turn has led to a broad homegenisation of Astartes armies in 30k. Who hasn't seen the army made up of a flare shielded spartan, quad mortars, a leviathan, tactical vets with sniper and then caterphractii terminators?
8th edition was a ripe opportunity to add value to the lesser used units of the games, of which there are many, such as destroyers and recon marines, breachers and tartaros terminators. How many people ignore legion astartes specific units because they simply don't compete on a price point with your standard Pride of the Legion built force?
I am still holding out hope for the move to 8th edition in a year or so, to allow that ground up re-balance which I think 30k DOES need. Yes it is nowhere near the imbalance of 40k in 7th, but I think that comparison hides an imbalance nonetheless.
With regards to the books, the black books very often become out of date anyway due to re-pointing and rules changes appearing in the red books, I don't think anyone buys them purely for rules. And the red books could easily be released as 1 or 2 indices as we've seen how many they can fit into a book for 40k.
Finally, the redesign of rules for almost all of the vehicles will have already been done for 8th edition, as evidenced by the on release availability of chaos and imperial indices for forgeworld units. These would have been simple to port over for 8th edition 30k. Indeed the primary statline of marines, the bulk of 30k units, would also have been easy to port over, given how unchanging the marine statline is over the interceding 10'000 years.
I am not a doomsayer and I will continue to have fun with modified 7th, but 8th would have addressed the issues with 30k that ARE there. To say its a perfectly balanced ruleset where all choices are equally viable is to ignore the vast evidence from events and the lists represented, that this is simply not true. People are often averse to change, but if we as hobbyists were that resistant to change, we wouldn't all be stuck in this swirling maelstrom of a past time for the time that we have been.
Apologies for the rant :)
Here, have a picture of Serena and mines cat:
Not fat, actually tiny, but mostly fluff!!
Agreed it was disappointing that 30K didn't change as well. I'm confident it will in the future. In the meantime I'll continue hoarding models until I start playing again!!!ReplyDelete
It's a time-honoured tradition!Delete
Couldn't have said it better myself, though I'll probably try (in fact, The Adept may make an appearance on the blog in the next few days bringing his own unique take on the grim dark decisions of Forgeworld).ReplyDelete
May I also be the first to congratulate you on your cute, hairy, tiny pussy ;)
Well played, Mr Thrower, well played :)Delete
Cheers Mike, never let it be said that I missed out on giving the punch line to an obvious set-up!Delete
Oh Nicholas, you vagabond you :PDelete
Yep. Let's hope someone in the community writes 8th edition lists for our 30k armies.ReplyDelete
The biggest mood point about HH staying in 7th - you can't play on 40k tournaments anymore. You can't play against pure 40k players in your local store anymore, and you won't be able to play against any new units/armies GW will release in the future.
It really will stagnate the player base with HH and severely limit anyone that doesn't have a vibrant HH scene :(Delete
Well if you want to play 30k vs 40k in 8th just get a chaos/space marine index and the forge world index of your choice. They will cover 90-95% of the stuff you can get for a heresy so you can use them as the appropriate 40k army.ReplyDelete
Mechanicum forces will probably need to wait for fires of cyraxis and you can use militarium tempestus/astra militarium to represent solar auxhilla. So the options are there it is just up to us how we use them.
There are, and I believe you could still sue 7th edition with your 40k armies if you're so inclined, but tis vexing nonethelessDelete
Amen brother. Well said! Couldn't agree moreReplyDelete
Praise be to 8th!Delete
Aye, I figure that we'll see the heresy move to 8th in a year or so. While I'm a little bummed that they're not moving to 8th immediately (as I quite like what I've been reading of the rules), I am equally happy that FW isn't going to just rush out an 8th transition. I'd prefer they take their time and do it right...ReplyDelete
I hope the transition will be sooner rather than later, but I am currently in a bit of melodramatic funk about the whole think :(Delete
I'm definitely in the same camp. This decision has put my 30K Alpha Legion firmly on the back burner, which is kind of disappointing, since I was looking forward to the project.ReplyDelete
Hopefully Alpha Legion will get some tasty 7th edition rules for you :)Delete
Yay! Fluffy cat :D Well said, I was a bit disappointed with the decision myself. For now I am just going to enjoy painting some 30K miniatures.ReplyDelete
A fact I look forward too!Delete
I am very happy they are staying with 7th and hope they do so indefinitely. I've played a few games of 8th now and wow it is bland. I don't see how it has the granularity for 30k, or the tactical depth.ReplyDelete
By turn 3 it looks like a game of AoS, everything clumped up and fighting in the middle or in a deployment zone. Take two shooty armies it is just dice rolling. There seems little point in movement as without armour facings there is no advantage to outflank. Filling the board with chaff is how to win.
I don't want 30k units to lose their identity the way 40k units have. I'll be stripping what I can of my 40k collection and repainting for 30k, everything else is on the shelf. If 30k moves to 8th I guess I'm out.
40k units haven't lost identity indefinitely though, the indices are and always have been a stop gap.Delete
The current games played are rather more determined by people playing 8th with a 7th mindset, every game I have played of 8th has been a nailbiter with action all over the board.
And line of sight blocking terrain is what makes movement important, and if you're playing without that, then that is the problem. Gaming tables that don't have large blocking terrain had terrible games in 7th, 6th, 5th etc.
30k doesn't have granularity because 60% plus of the options aren't taken by most armies, so you end up with a sub section of a faction being played. People doe take fluffy armies, but as in all 7th games with 30k or 40k, fluffy just cannot compete. In 8th edition fluffy certainly can
From what I have seen of the Chaos Codex and Space Marine Codex the radical simplification has continued from the Index to the Codex. Still no flavour.Delete
I think people have had long enough to get used to 8th. Folk are losing interest in it already at my club, and we are buying a mat to play Zone Mortalis so we have something to play small games on as we build up our 30K armies.
With vehicles being able to shoot all of their weapons from a single exposed track link or aerial peeping out behind some bit of terrain, and things behind but not in cover being counted as in the open the terrain rules are as broken and dumb in 8th as everything else. LOS blocking terrain has always improved games, that is nothing new. Now it is the only reason to move, when before it was one of many reasons. If units have firing lanes set up though they will stay put. I have seen several games of 8th where a piece of LOS blocking terrain in the middle of the table set up a stalemate where no-one would move their assault units round it and expose them to the very deadly shooting of 8th, the terrain in that case having the opposite effect to what you suggest.
There is a lot of subtlety to the 7th Ed rules. Even the loss of the I stat and WS vs WS reduces that. How do you represent a unit that hits first and accurately and uses its speed and skill as defence now in 8th? Can't be done. In 7th having higher I and WS did just that, simply.
The tactical elements in 8th are just gamey. It feels like you are playing a boardgame. why should I be able to spend a command point to circumvent morale or hit first? What is that meant to mean in the narrative?
Its just dull as heck.
You might want to have a look at the rules again - slaanesh daemons in particular have a rule that precisely reflects them using their speed and skill as a defence in the current edition.Delete
Your comment to me smacks of someone who doesn't want to adapt to a new system. My games of 8th have been loads of fun to play, much more 'in the balance' than many games I had in 7th, and I've not had a game yet where I felt that I simply couldn't deal with a particular threat, which could happen a lot in 7th.
As for command points, they are meant to represent you (as the general) ensuring that appropriate focus is given to particular moments in the game. For example don't think of it as circumventing morale, think of it as your commander getting on the vox to a squad and making it clear to them that for the battle to be won they absolutely must hold their position - there are plenty of examples in history where just such a sacrifice has been militarily significant.
As ever, 8th edition benefits from the tactical objectives deck - playing the eternal war missions can feel much more like a point and shoot game - the tactical objectives deck forces you to move around the board or fall behind, and 8th as a whole rewards building a balanced list far more than relying on an unkillable deathstar.
Well said Nick. I know a huge amount of players world wide and I am very active communicating with players. The overwhelming view of 8th Edition is one of great enjoyment.Delete
There is still huge variety in how units function and how they need to be used in order to win. The cover mechanic works incredibly well, your table might not be set up for it, but that doesn't make the mechanism poor!
Additionally, two players refusing to move, is well.. their problem? You can both refuse to move in many games and sports, that speaks of the players not the game... I just don't think you've substantiated the reason for 8th edition being poor beyond personal taste, which is FINE!
I'm not saying you're wrong and you should like 8th edition, but blanket statements saying its terrible are demonstrably not correct. In tandem, blanket statements saying 30k and 7th edition are perfect are demonstrably false. I'm afraid we'll all have to agree to disagree, as I said the vast majority of people I talk to world over are enjoying 8th edition and are happy with the flavour returning in codices. The vast majority of 30k players I know are also unhappy with the continued presence of 7th, precisely because 7th inherently imbalances a system with certain USR being so clearly optimal over others.
I do hope that you and your club continue to enjoy it though :)